"Butcher and Wren" Book Review & Rating: Top Shelf Book Club chat transcript
- ryanmoliver
- Apr 3
- 72 min read
Ryan Oliver
Welcome to Top Shelf Book Club, a Mighty Books podcast segment where my sister, Emily MacDonald, and I, Ryan Oliver, discuss presumably quality books while indulging in some Top Shelf liquor. So, listen for yourself while we judge books to see whether they earn the right to be rated Top Shelf. So, welcome everyone to Top Shelf Book Club, which is a book club within the Mighty Books podcast. So, there you go. So, I'm Ryan, and this is Emily. Emily. I have you as M's on our thumbnail, so I can change it to Emily, whatever you want. So, M's, Emily, M, little one, little shit, whatever works. Little shit works great too. Little one. All of it works. Chris calls you little one.
Emily McDonald
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Oliver
Which I get, but I don't like as well. But anyway, whatever.
Emily McDonald
Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Oliver
But yeah, so we're here to talk to you guys about books, especially Top Shelf books or proclaimed Top Shelf books while drinking. Probably not Top Shelf booze, but we like to think we can identify it as anything it wants to be.
Emily McDonald
I mean, I love a good $15 and less bottle of wine.
Ryan Oliver
I'm a cheapo. I'll go $6 bottle of wine. Yeah. I'm happy.
Emily McDonald
Oh, I will too. Yeah. My high range is $15.
Ryan Oliver
Oh, hell yeah. Cheers. Yeah.
Emily McDonald
Above that, someone else buys it for me. Like, I'm done. Yeah.
Ryan Oliver
This is a whiskey that I, this is the Bushmills you guys bought me for Christmas last year. That was a crisp pick. Yeah, that was a crisp pick. It's good. It's taken a little bit to get used to, but I'm on it now. I like it. I like it about as good as Jameson, maybe starting to go more and more better. I don't know better because I can talk. No, better. I talk well. I talk well. Obviously we're terribly, we're incredibly professional and really educated; educated.
Emily McDonald
A thousand percent. Yes.
Ryan Oliver
A thousand percent. Because that's a thing.
Emily McDonald
A thousand percent. It is. A thousand percent. It's a number.
Ryan Oliver
Yes. So this is the first episode of 10 for our first season of the book club.
Emily McDonald
Yes.
Ryan Oliver
It used to be fun. So we started just kind of, how did we even come up with the book club, Emily?
Emily McDonald
Uh, Chris told me about it. I couldn't let he had an idea. I don't remember if you had it too, but Chris and I were laying in bed and my boyfriend, not my brother. And, um, we, yeah, that would be strange. So he goes, you know, I have a, I have an idea for, you know, you and your brother, you guys should do a book club podcast. And I was like, Holy crap. That's such a good idea.
Ryan Oliver
I feel like we were on the phone and you had brought that up, but I had been mulling it over, like doing some kind of book club ask. Thing, but I, you know, doing it by myself is fun. Yeah. Collaborative effort. Well, then we have Ryan's ramblings, which is just kind of us BSing and other couple of cool topics. I was like, you like to read, I like to read. And then you brought up what Chris mentioned, like this kind of makes sense.
Emily McDonald
Sure does. I like logic, natural evolution of things. I know. Beautiful.
Ryan Oliver
And it makes me read more. So I have not been reading as much as I should, but because I've been podcasting so much, it's just.
Emily McDonald
I've been reading a lot because I haven't been podcasting.
Ryan Oliver
That's good too. Sometimes I'll take a break from podcasting just so I can read, but you know, it's just, I've made commitments and oh. Yeah. Sometimes.
Emily McDonald
I read on the treadmill a lot.
Ryan Oliver
Oh, that's, I can never read on the treadmill. I get terribly sick. I just can't. I'm up and down too much. I move too much.
Emily McDonald
That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. I get really bad motion sickness, but I'm fine reading on the treadmill. Don't know why.
Ryan Oliver
We all have our talents. We all have our talents.
Emily McDonald
That's my one.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah.
Emily McDonald
It's your one talent. That's my one.
Ryan Oliver
You found the one talent I have.
Emily McDonald
That's so well for the rest of my life.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah. I'm good. Just going to skate through life. You know, let everyone else take care of you.
Emily McDonald
Exactly.
Ryan Oliver
That's how it's going to work. Yeah, that makes sense. So we have our, our first book is the Butcher and the Ren by Elena Urquhart.
SPEAKER_3
Yes.
Ryan Oliver
Okay. And I know Emily, you have prepared. She's touching her herself. I mean, um, um, her hand against her heart.
Emily McDonald
Yes. How do you even describe that without it sounding weird?
Ryan Oliver
I meant to do it on purpose because I knew it would kind of irritate you a little bit or gross you out.
Emily McDonald
No.
Ryan Oliver
Okay. Yeah. She, she loves, she loves this individual and she's going to give a little about the author because, um, she knows all about her, all about her. She stalked her.
Emily McDonald
I'm not a stalker or anything. Yeah. I, she was a little bit difficult to find about the author stuff for, because she's not like in. I mean, she's an author, but she's a podcaster really. Like that's what she started with. Um, so I took a little bit from her about the author from the book. I took a lot from that podcast episode that she did on Morbid. Um, so what I have prepared is a little, a little couple paragraph thing.
Ryan Oliver
Go ahead. Read her out, read her out.
Emily McDonald
All right. So Elena Urquhart co-hosts Morbid: Scream and The Rewatcher: Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. She had a career as an autopsy technician, which she loved doing. And you can tell in the book how much knowledge she has regarding all of the science behind murder. She is from Boston where she currently lives with her husband, John. She has three daughters, two puppies, and a ghost pug named Bailey. She has degrees in criminal justice, biology, and psychology. And you can tell when listening to Morbid as well as in the book that she's just incredibly knowledgeable on all of these topics. I did listen to a podcast episode where she discusses the book on pub day. And if you want to check it out, it was released September 13th, 2022. And the name of the episode is 'Bonus Episode: The Butcher and the Wren Discussion and Preview'. It's about 17 minutes without the snippet of the first chapter that she reads. And she discusses what her writing process was like. She got the idea for the book from a nightmare she had from what she said on Morbid. She has nightmares and sleep paralysis fairly frequently, and she tends to write down bits and pieces from her dreams. And this one was just super vivid and she was being chased by someone she couldn't see. It was dark. There was loud music. She could tell she was outside. She could feel that it was swampy. And she immediately sprang out of bed after that, as one does after a nightmare. And she started writing down what happened and she was thinking and like mulling it over later. And wanted to know, like, who was chasing me and, you know, more backstory. And she just ended up deciding to write a page about him and his motives and all of that. And then after that, she just kept adding more and more backstory and information. And the book was born. And she said they had to shave a lot out of the book. In her words, she was writing, quote, an epic fantasy adventure. And I needed to rein it in a bit. She would try and write frequently, even while experiencing writer's block, just to keep the ideas flowing. And according to her, Jeremy is based on many different horror movie villains. And Ren is based on, quote, who she wants to be. And she gave Ren characteristics she tries to have. Ash countered with, I feel like Ren is who you are, not who you strive to be. But that's fine.
SPEAKER_3
Yeah.
Emily McDonald
And she also said she had to do a ton of research on super random things like pig hunting laws in Louisiana and things of that nature. And she also let us know that the story is not over yet. So we can look forward to the sequel she's currently writing. As she said, quote, there is more to the story.
Ryan Oliver
Yes, there is. And that's very obvious. When you get to the end. I thought it was a one and done-er. And it is not. It is not a one-and-done-er. It's good. So spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Cover your eyes. Cover your mouth. Cover your ears. Cover your nose. It's a spoiler alert. Cover all your holes. It's a spoiler alert. I will just emphasize that there is. Yes. We are talking about the whole book, ins and outs, all the details as much as we can. My first thought of this, because I got this when this came out, you were like all about it. I was laughing super hard at you because you're a big true crime fan, podcast, murder mystery. So don't make her mad. Documentary. Documentary. Don't make her mad. She's a sweetheart, but don't make her mad. I'll make you disappear.
Emily McDonald
No one will find your body. Exactly.
Ryan Oliver
She's watched enough. She's listened to enough of this. This stuff. It's kind of creepy, but I'm big into podcasting, listening to podcasts, excuse me. And Elena, you've heard of Talk to Elena. How long has she had the podcast for?
Emily McDonald
Oh, I think they started it in like 2019.
Ryan Oliver
Oh, shoot. Pre-pandemic. Yeah.
Emily McDonald
They like to call that their underwater days because their audio is really bad. And so it sounds like they're underwater.
Ryan Oliver
That is a, that is a thing when you're a new podcaster. It's just, you have a crappy microphone. You don't know what you're doing. And then finally, you get it. It figured out in a microphone mix, all the difference. I finally upgraded to a decent one after a while. And I can, after doing this for a while, I can tell the difference, but anyway. Yeah. So when, when that book finally came out, you bought the book when it first came out, you sent me the link and everything. I'm like, 'this looks really cool', but I really kind of wasn't reading a whole lot. Just because I was working a bunch and you like killed it in a day, two days.
Emily McDonald
I think two or three, Chris kept making me put it down. I would've killed it in a day, easy, but he was like, 'You need to go to bed.' And I was like, 'No, I don't.' They just found a body and he was like, 'That's great. It'll be there tomorrow.'
Ryan Oliver
You know what? Good for him for helping you maintain your sleep schedule. Cause that's really important. I think I took about three days, but we were traveling. So we read for an hour and honestly guys, it's really, it's really a great pace. I mean, if you are not a huge reader, this thing ends at 242 pages and the font size is good enough. It's got decent spacing. It's not a giant. It's not a gigantic book. So you'll find yourself burning through these chapters super fast. They're not long.
Emily McDonald
I would say, I really love the length of the chapters and everything. You feel like you can just bust through it, but in a good way, not like I'm going through this so quick and like, it's well, and through this, and through this process, cause I've, you and I both read it twice now, we've read it twice now.
Ryan Oliver
I just, I literally just finished it again today. So cause everything was fresh. I have a hard time of retaining it. It's funny. I don't know what the reason is, but I've read it twice and I've had to do this much. It's like, wow, I've got this whole series of chapters that I could probably summarize in three or four lines. But there are short chapters that she packed in so much information and it wasn't like it was bought. You felt bogged down. You're just like, 'There's a lot happening right now.' It's internal, it's external. It's it's just really, it was really well done. And I'm glad I went back and reread it. Cause the first time, I don't think I was. I was just a little disappointed. More distracted, yeah, because I was traveling to Arizona with the family and uh, you know, you read a chapter at a time it doesn't hit it doesn't hit you. You read two, three, four chapters at a time, you're fully immersed, you get the you get the feeling everything, so it's really cool, yeah, yeah, I marathoned it both times, so did you, okay, yeah, I yeah, I marathoned it mostly between last night and today because I just didn't have any time and I was exhausted, just you know, Halloween too, we had Halloween, we were in bed by eight, so we were back from trick-or-treating at 8:30, so yeah, yeah, we were both like, no, we did put a bucket of candy out though for neighborhood kids.
Emily McDonald
Oh, that's nice, that's nice, yeah, out of the one kid just picked it up and threw right in the bag, the whole thing, it might have happened actually because we had no trick-or-treaters, and then we just put I put take a handful because we had a whole. bucket of candy, and we woke up, and there was none there. I was like, 'How much you want to bet one kid came by and took all of the candy?
Ryan Oliver
Whatever it's gone, it's sort of a purpose. You did exactly what you did right; you did it.
Emily McDonald
I did my conscience is clear.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, yeah...
Emily McDonald
Anyway, I absolutely love this book. And one thing that I noticed too is she'll reference like real serial killers in it, which I absolutely love. BTK, she does, which I was dying laughing because if you listen to Morbid's um episode on BTK, Elena is the one telling the story and she just rags on him the whole time. Yeah, and you can tell in the book that she also hates BTK and I love it so much.
Ryan Oliver
It's not just the fact that this person's a murderer, it's that he's a stupid murderer, that's what's funny. Because he mocked he mocked the freaking uh uh police, you know the story better than I do. I mock the police talk something about a floppy disk and he asked if you could trace a floppy disk or something like that. He asked the police if you could trace a floppy disk, they're like 'no', well of course they figured it out and uh yeah on the honor system for murder, exactly what the hell he named himself. It's just yeah that's amazing, but I guess we should kind of start with like the summary of the whole book, like you kind of jumped on. It a little bit but I mean it what I really like about this how how she formatted it, oh yes I was gonna bring that up because I was like um I was wondering how you're gonna do it some uh some a lot was a lot of the mysteries I've read you're following the detective she's not a detective she's an ME she's a medical examiner so you're following Ren okay you're following Ren and I was thinking that was all we're gonna follow it's just Ren because that's most of the stories at least I've read I don't usually follow that you don't really follow the serial killer maybe one or two three scenes yeah every other chapter is Jeremy the the
Emily McDonald
Serial killer Ren is the hero and back and forth, and it's there's no if answer but it is that way until the end I love it, yeah I love it because in the it's you see this like you get to know more about Jeremy his backstory you get to know Ren, you don't know her whole backstory I think until part two is when you finally get the whole picture everything connects and the timeline isn't quite matching up for both of them and you're kind of like okay wait this doesn't quite make sense but like all right okay we'll figure that out well right because it's a job with like um as they start finding more bodies yeah the because in the scenes
Ryan Oliver
Where they're actually, he's actually hunting down the people you know, the victims, the wounds they sustain and the terrain they're in, and how their bodies presented by Ren, and then they you look back at their chapters, you're like, yeah, okay, that's definitely this person's body, like that's, yeah, oh, they got they got stabbed in the same place, they're bleeding the same place they were uh they were muddy as heck, they were in the swamp, that makes sense, and then you learn there's the big twist, there, yep, later on, but I mean, um, how would you even describe it's like a lot of back like the the timeline, how would you describe a timeline
Emily McDonald
As if flashback, it's flashback mixed with present day, yeah, because for most of his chapters in the first half, it's a flashback of previous victims he's yeah had while Wren is in present day, is hunting him down but doesn't know she's hunting him down yet, yeah. And then I think it's pretty much the shift to part two is when it kind of matches up and you're like 'oh okay, now we now we know what's going on, okay, cool, great!
Ryan Oliver
It absolutely is because the whole the whole premise it starts off with his kind of perspective of just like human behavior, his and he you see him, he's got two victims in his um uh his basement at this time they're both Alive, yeah, they're both alive, and he's just just torturing the living dickens out of them in not necessarily physically but mentally, emotionally torturing them. I mean, he's, yeah, he's just, he is a bona fide is that psychopath or sociopath at the very least; he's psychotic, but he's probably a sociopath.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, yeah, I can't so well controlled; yeah, he's very well controlled.
Ryan Oliver
They said it like who was was it Ted Bundy? Was it Ted Bundy, who was like super, super attractive and like women would go home with him, and they wouldn't, they wouldn't like bat an eyelash because he was a very attractive guy, and he was a very had a nice smile. and he was well spoken yep very intelligent very intelligent so people were like oh well i can trust this guy just on appearances alone it's like uh no you can't no you can't you know trust the gross looking people who can't speak well that's what you need to do and they won't kill nobody is what you should do that's kind of for me yeah you know what gain evidence gain evidence before you get into someone else's car and go for a quick drive or uh you know go hook up or whatever weird thing you want to go do or i don't know anyway i don't know i looked at the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath and i think he would be classified
Emily McDonald
as a psychopath because sociopath has aggressive and reckless behavior which he does but he's not a psychopath he's not a psychopath he's not a psychopath he does have at some points but that's because he's spinning out of control which is yeah that's situational but he tends to be successful inability to form true emotional attachment lack of guilt remorse and empathy pretending to feel emotion oh yeah he definitely that yeah well i i i hate to say it like when when he was talking about so in the beginning when you take him through is basically his normal day so he's he's got these two people he leaves them in his basement
Ryan Oliver
They're like, they can't get out, they, she describes what he has done these two and how they're secured to a chair or something, they're bolted to the floor, bolted to the floor, encased in cement. Good luck, like I don't care how strong you are, how much time you have, you're probably odds are you're not getting out of that. Exactly who knows? I'm not a structural engineer by any means, but anyway, and then he, I actually kind of sympathize and can, oh my god, yes. He's like, I'm not a structural engineer by any means, but anyway, and then he's like, I'm not a structural that part no that's no, don't kill people, don't kill people unless They deserve it, okay. No, I didn't say that, um, so, um, uh, anyway, no what is it called, uh, I'm trying to think of the word now when someone goes out and is like a superhero fighting bad guys, oh vigilantism, there we go, okay, I was like, superhero, I don't know, no, not always sorry, is the old man in my brain, he has a rolodex still, and he's, he's got arthritis, and he can't go, I have the same one, yeah, okay, yeah, okay, um, but I love it because he goes through, he's going to work, and he works in a cubicle at some i don't know what company was I can't remember, I don't even know if they bring it up, but he's working in a cubicle, he's on a computer all day, he hates life. and he hates being around people like just like data entry or something it was something monotonous like that yeah or he can let his mind wander and think of other yes other things which is funny because you and i've talked about this uh i was i was complaining that i my ideas for my books have kind of stopped because of when i changed my jobs being a you know deck plate worker where i was just kind of walking around going through the motions doing the things i was doing forever really mindless stuff important but mindless and now i actually have to use my brain because teaching you kind of use your brain so i didn't have that Time to just to mull over ideas, yeah, and so, but he's thinking of bad things, I'm thinking of good things, yes, very different, I know. I put in here so it's in Chapter Three is when we're we're doing that and I, I put I thought I hated people until I read Jeremy's thoughts, uh, I feel like I love them in comparison, like yeah, well I love you, know what's funny is, uh, when he gets in the car, so he's leaving work, he's he's like, 'You could feel that he goes to decompression just, uh, yes, yeah, I have that after like a long class or something, oh god, yeah, you know, I've got 12 people staring at me and I'm I'm riffing back with people and I'm talking and I'm answering. Questions, it's not that I hate it; it's just you're you're a little you're using a lot of energy. You are using a lot of energy, and we're both introverts, so when you're around people, it takes a lot of energy to do that and be connected. I love it with like family; I mean, I can do it all day with family; I mean hours and hours, I'm fine. But yeah, oh my god, with strangers, oh it's hard, yeah, hard. I don't like it. I love how she layered in Ren and him together; uh, Ren and Jeremy; uh, stories. I love how open up like she really doesn't waste time; she really uses every word she does.
Emily McDonald
I think everything was picked so strategically and so meticulously. To explain everything, I wrote for Chapter One that I almost root for Jeremy, like how you root for Jeremy, and I wrote for Jeremy. And I wrote for some villains in movies because I was like maybe due to my fascination with killers, but I just want to stay in his head through the book, even though I love hearing Ren from her perspective. It's so like fascinating to hear things from the killer's perspective, especially because in the first chapter, like I love the the way that they play off of each other and their different perspectives. But I just absolutely love Jeremy's perspective because I am so fascinated with like the psychology. Behind killers, I just i love and I also love that there was such an early reference to Dommer in an ice pick lobotomy like literally chapter one of the book. And I just love the way we're coming out of the races with Dommer and a lobotomy, like straight up.
Ryan Oliver
And yeah, well I thought it was interesting that he's talking about his parents because it goes deep, it goes there. And like I said, she does a great job of whoever her editor was, and you know if she beta-tested with people they did a really great job, she... I'm just gonna give her the credit because I don't know better, um. But she did a great job at giving you the information; I feel, I really feel. Like, she didn't waste any words, um, yeah, it was just so much fun, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, and I just love it, so well done. And you gave a good amount of background without being too detailed, and it was just, it was perfect size, perfect length, and the sentences, I really enjoyed that part. Oh, I also was curious; I think you already answered this question, uh, it was one of my little notes: 'It's what attracted her using the bayou as her setting in Louisiana.' Is she from there at all? No, no, it was just it was born and raised in Boston, okay, that's
Emily McDonald
A little further than yeah, it was just the dream, yeah, and so she won't be yeah, she said that she could see nothing but it felt swampy, swampy, so she was like, clearly I was in a swamp, and so that's where she set it up, was that's his little corral, that's where he hunts people is in a swamp in a swamp, I mean it, it made sense, uh, I mean if you've ever looked at seen videos of the bayou, yeah, that is a frightening place, it's beautiful, yeah, oh gorgeous, but you don't want to be stuck there in the pitch black running from a murderer that or any kind of thing with teeth or can hurt you, you know what I mean exactly, I don't want to what I found really.
Ryan Oliver
Interesting too about this, uh, her whole book was it's really about Ren like it's not I mean obviously it's about Ren um, but what I love is it's not and maybe the women will disagree if you will too.
Emily McDonald
I love how there was no romance involved, did too, I really, I don't know, I don't mind like a young adult rom-com kind of book, like I don't mind at all. But I love in this one they have, there are romantic relationships but the book is about hunting a killer and that's that's it, like and that's it.
Ryan Oliver
The few mysteries I've read, I would say actually read quite a few, but one of the few authors Michael Connelly is my favorite so far, I'm, I'm branching Out as I learn more, uh people anyway, he he always, oh it's all you could his things like a formula, I mean they're good but when you've read 10, 12 of them, you're like I'm starting to see a pattern here, yeah um and it's just you know, I get it. How are you going to write this many one a year pretty much, it's crazy, but every single time there is some romantic thing because it's a plague, you know it's usually a plagued character, he's got these, you know, he's a loner and he needs connection and then he finds it and it's a usually ends either terrible or or oh yeah happy for only a couple of books and then it's ended. I love that it was just, she has. A healthy relationship with her husband this is kind of, this is kind of nice, exactly.
Emily McDonald
It's, you know, he has a healthy amount of concern for her when she's going to do something dangerous, yes, and he trusts that she's gonna do what she needs to do, and she's there with a detective, he also trusts so he's like, 'Yeah, you know, go off with him. I trust you, just don't do anything dangerous.'
Ryan Oliver
Because, Larue, Larue, I like was it Larue? Probably Larue, probably LaRoe, I think, so okay, one of the it's French, yeah, I mean, Louisiana, you're gonna have a French impact there, exactly, yeah. And then Bruce, so will they call him Will, well, yeah, but um, the Two of them, the two of them, she's got those two plus all the officers of PD because they're going in what I again; something I enjoyed about her is the realism; yes, there was logic.
Emily McDonald
I at no point in time during her you know interactions with the dead bodies or really out and about anywhere I go one would do that or no woman would do this exactly; I didn't have anything yeah I didn't have anything where I was like that's not realistic because like Chris and I will watch different movies and I'm like that wouldn't happen, like there's I've watched I know how too many things work in this this world realistically and that's not what would.
Ryan Oliver
happen and i love that when she is doing the autopsies she uses medical terminology but explains them in a way that doesn't make it seem like she thinks the reader's going to be stupid explains them in a way that is just like oh this is what this is and that's just where the blood pulls like after the body's like you know that's fine and then like moves and she actually uses big big words she's not like she's like and then the blood starts here and goes she doesn't like talk i don't feel like she was talking down she actually uses big words yeah scientific exactly you don't understand it you can look it up but i mean and that's
Emily McDonald
It might be because I am so familiar with the true crime space that I didn't have any words that I was like, 'I don't know what that is and I have some books where I hate when every other page there's a word that I'm like, 'What does that mean? Like, I don't want to be having Google up every you know, like all the time.
Ryan Oliver
I've had a few, I've had a few like that, not too many but yeah, there's a couple times English is very vast; I mean it's it is.
Emily McDonald
Did you have you seen Bob's Burgers? This is related, I swear! I have never seen an episode of Bob's Burgers, God okay, it's great; I think you would actually really like it, but there's a Sergeant, okay, his name is Sergeant. Bosco and he is not like Larue but every time I read his character part, I think of Sergeant Bosco and anyone that knows Bob's Burgers will know exactly what I mean because he's just this like divorced, alcoholic, rough-and-tumble kind of detective. And so for some reason, he's always what pops up; then Larue is gay, has very well-pressed suits, is very kind, and speaks so and I'm always like, 'That's not the person I need to get out of that.'
Ryan Oliver
Like how do you get that? Yeah, because I was like, 'I did not get that at all.' Like he's straight-laced, he's absolutely professional, he's smart, he's dedicated, you know, and it's like, 'I don't See, he's not dirty, he's not one of those like no, not smoking and drinking, divorced, not at all.
Emily McDonald
It's and it's so funny I have to pull myself out; I think just because I've seen Bob's Burgers so much that's just immediately I'm like, 'There's a detective, it's Sergeant Bosco', and it's not every time I had to constantly pull myself out of it. I think just because I've seen like this is a different person, like someone from Do...
Ryan Oliver
uh, oh my god, what's the captain from Brooklyn 99 because he's gay; oh, I love him, I love him too, he's just so deadpan, it's amazing. Yes, he's like, 'I am so pleased right now, I am emotionally devastated right now and I'm like I just i can't help but laugh at him; he's so good, he is. I can't remember his name, I gotta re-watch that show, I can't either; yes, I need to re-watch it too, I can't remember anybody's.
Emily McDonald
I can picture, I can't too; it is, it is in my mind's eye right now, it's there, yeah, he's there, but yeah, for some reason, that's that's just what sticks there um one one other thing about the book that I just absolutely love is just her wording of things, her imagery that she puts in your head without being overly wordy and there's one that she writes it's the first um it's the first chapter of part two so chapter 23 and it's from Jeremy's chapter um it's none. Can you know the utter loneliness that precedes death until it comes for them physiologically, they can accurately explain what happens when a heart stops beating, but not the anguish that pours from someone's soul the moment they realize their life is being snuffed out by another. Like how beautiful and like morbid it's just amazing, yeah. But it's so it just hits you and it's it's it's oh it's like an ice pick lobotomy, it sure is cold and pointy, and you don't know what's gonna happen afterwards, oh my god.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, she did, she did a couple of good ones. I'm trying to, I'm trying to like sift through a bunch of there, I've got a lot of just Like, um, uh, what do you call it this illness, but yeah, I really liked how she just she captured the scenes very nicely and it wasn't like I said, too wordy; I've had books where I'm like, 'Get to the freaking point' absolutely where I'm like, 'This description a page long yeah well, and it was great, I love; I'm more as I'm getting older and I have less time read, I don't know if you do this chapter, whatever and I will go 30 pages, yep okay, I better not be disrupted and disturbed by this, but if I if I turn you know this guy and I'm like, 'Oh, eight, got this,' I don't do that if I get disrupted, I can or I need I'm needed because that's what usually happens. Dad, come help me with this or honey, I need help with this. Okay, I got two pages left, one second or, yeah, I can't go, I've got 83 pages left! Hours? Okay, I'll be right there. Yeah, you know what I mean.
Emily McDonald
I just got done reading this book that was really good. It's called Disney's Land by Richard Snow, obviously it's a Disney book. Um, but it's about like the like everything involving Disneyland opening day and all that kind of stuff. And there are long chapters in it, which rightfully so, it's needed. But, God, I'm like this is 30 pages!
Ryan Oliver
Like, I have one thing that's okay for it if you have a scene break; scene breaks are fine, oh yeah, they did it she did it in here yeah she had the little the little funky symbol actually looks like the the new england or new england saints not the new orleans saints the saints whatever sure louisiana yeah i don't know damn sports teams sports uh football team saints i can't remember can you tell i don't care about sports i just don't care i'm not even a little bit the foosball the foosball game is on that's cool you know what i mean it's just but anyway there's whatever emblem that is it's like of the saints yeah uh uh emblem there i'm like oh okay that's nice and so if i needed to stop for a second i could go there and take care of What I take, yeah, come back, and I'm right there, so it's like not a big deal. I really like that a lot, but um, okay. So, summarizing, we start off the beginning, you know. Ren's also I love that she is like the lead me; she's got she's teaching, yes, that's cool too, and she's like she's seeing and she's like actually adding like legit pressures of the job like I have so much I gotta do, and so when she comes into work one day, she's like, 'I have a full stack of freaking things I gotta take care of now and so she actually doles out the jobs to those. Yeah, I'm like that's cool; it's so realistic, yeah, it just makes sense when you add those little Details, it's it's uh, it kind of helps you don't have to be too wordy about it; it was just simple dialogue here's the thing, exactly go and then go back to the story it is kind of added to the whole what she's got to deal with on a day-to-day basis, exactly.
Emily McDonald
And it wasn't I liked that she was like, 'Okay, this I know I can trust this tech with this one so okay I'll call them and they can handle that one; okay great, and then this one I know can handle that one, so okay that one's done, and then I can handle this. And I also liked when she was doing the last autopsy, and she was like, 'I can't do this that she was able to be, 'I'm gonna get too emotional And I'm gonna overlook things, so I'm taking a break, a tech can come in and do it, and that's the end of that, yeah, exactly.
Ryan Oliver
And so for whoever is listening and has read The Butch and The Ren, you know, add anything like that you thought was really cool, you know, different points and pieces and quotes maybe your thoughts and ideas when you were reading it because it's just it's just really intriguing. But if you've never read this and you don't care about spoilers, we should probably go through the the whole story as to how like it actually unfolds because of the twist was actually really elegant and it was really interesting and It was I who was questioning it half the time, the whole time, like how does this work? Is it super linear and it's not? It kind of folds on its head; it's almost kind of Tarantino-esque if you know what I mean. They kind of put it out, I know what you mean, but I definitely haven't seen a Tarantino movie so okay, so then you don't know what I mean, then you have to watch no, but I know that he's known for that kind of stuff yes, okay, okay well fair enough, I take back my i resent my recede rescind whatever statement there; take it back, yeah, take it back, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna call it back now, but yeah, so, so all right. So we start off with Jeremy, and we've got our Jeremy's, our wonderful terrible serial killer. He's got his two victims, um, and then Ren's doing her thing; they're finding all these bodies now in the bayou, and they're just mangled, they're just awfully beaten; they're beaten, they're shot, they're stabbed, they're just badly tortured.
Emily McDonald
And um, oh I forgot about the, uh, I was just thinking about that yeah, I love that they did that little because he took he left he took oh goodness he had one like yeah he had I think it was a like the page one of a chapter or something from some book, yep and that was found in one of the victim's.
Ryan Oliver
Throats, yeah, and it was the most dangerous game, yes, which, um, we'll be talking about later, uh, but yeah. So it was funny before they revealed that it was the most dangerous game chapter of that book. They show the scene where Jeremy, now has the two living people that were still in his basement. Yeah, he abducts this other woman, his lab partner Emily Maloney, and now he's got kind of a three-day-three-victim Most Dangerous Game scene. If you've never seen Most if you've never seen The Most Dangerous Game movie or read the story, shame on you! You need to go do that. Um, no, no shame, just go do that. It's very it's not very long; it's great. but basically a the premise is a a billionaire owns an island people get shipwrecked on that island they are saved by the millionaire or billionaire whatever and he has fun with them by saying hey you're gonna go in the woods i'm gonna hunt you down and that's what happens here there's also a real life um alaskan serial killer named robert hansen that abducted um sex workers and he had a helicopter to his private like forest area yep and let them run in the forest and then he hunted them down oh so that was my first thought when i read this the first time wow he was called the butcher baker the butcher baker not really sure why but that's what he was called was he a candlestick maker too i don't think so but don't quote me on that i don't know anyway jesus he is a little messed up in the head he almost got away with it too decides they want to kill people for fun yeah hunt them down in the forest with a shotgun you know not really they probably need to get their head shrunk a little bit just a touch yeah figuratively and yeah anyway so back to it so he he steals this this poor girl emily in a like a parking garage sorry emily which that is i wrote this down that is a woman's worst freaking nightmare you walk into your car with somebody you think you can trust
Emily McDonald
and then you get freaking chloroformed out of nowhere like that's why you're not allowed to kill people for fun i have pepper spray like and you can't even use it at that point because she's turning her her back to unlock her she's like i'm good i'm good to go i'm at my car yeah terrifying and that's why this is a psychological thriller because holy crap yeah well it's funny it's funny for me because i didn't even that even come to mind like you know it's like okay well i'm a big dude i'm not i'm likely not going to be i'm not i'm likely not going to be a victim of someone trying to just abduct me unless i owe them a healthy lot of money
Ryan Oliver
Or I did something terrible to one of their mothers or something, like that. You know, I'm talking about okay, there's revenge, okay, something that women are unfortunately the victims of weird and terrible people, crap all the time, yeah it's it's just, yeah we're we're just we're bad, yeah y'all are terrible, we are terrible, awful, terrible, uh but yeah no I didn't even think about that like that is awful that she like you said can trust someone, but it didn't like strike me um what struck me was like really like actually affected me like I had to take a second like damn that was brutal, was yeah, so she he releases the three of them into The bayou and I love how I'm we're bringing from her dream now, yeah. You see, she heard music and you and he lists a lot of songs, she looks a lot of songs that Jeremy was belting in there, pumping through from the speakers. And they run, and he gives them a chance to go run. He's got on close camera television CCTV, he's watching, and he goes out there with a freaking shotgun, um I think he's got a Glock 22, and he's got his buoy knife, so he's gonna go hunt. At one point in time, you have Emily who's the smart one, yeah, makes sense it makes sense, um yeah. You couldn't see she did the whole like you know the girl thing where you push your hair back except i have birds so my braids went back that's hair still made of hair it's hair it's hair different but yeah so so she runs into um katie katie thank you and katie is how did he describe katie um he pretty much describes her as just like an idiot like he just loathes her so much she has no survival instinct she's just like there like she's just a person like yeah not even a person like he just loathes her well in in same with the guy matt i believe i think it's matt yeah so he takes these two and what was interesting is elena describes or i guess jeremy describes it as they are neither the was that they're not the princes or the vagabonds They're neither, yes they're not right in the middle princes are paupers that's what it was. Princes are paupers. Yeah, they're not, they're not high on the list, they're not too low on the list because that's where they all so they hang out with people, are just blending in. Yeah, kind of like what he does on the list and then they're all already but he blends them in; he takes them and then all of a sudden no one cares and they care very little. And so when he, when the three of them actually link up in the bayou, it is for like a split second.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, the three of them being alive together is very short.
Ryan Oliver
Yes, very short. Yeah, it was brutal and yeah, so In Matt, Matt got he got shot right in the head to the yep to right to the head I think right to the temple right in front of Katie yeah from pretty far away it sounded like in the book oh yeah yeah yeah he was hiding behind a tree where they couldn't well they couldn't see anyways because it was dark but yeah that's right pitch black that's right this is another element of the story it's very dark he has night vision goggles because that's what you have when you're a bayou butcher is what he called them obviously yeah and so he drops Katie's scream because that's her friend Emily's not too happy either they go running and then Before you know it, he takes his shotgun, blows out her knee. Yeah, and this is the part that actually was like, 'Damn, this is yeah, brutal.' He lets her bleed and scream for enough time that he feels like it's too long, yeah, it gets his jollies off, I mean, really, it does, yeah. And then, he proceeds to use the bullwhip on her, and does her in, personally, yeah, does her in. And I made a note actually, I was like, 'Goddamn, I want to know what like event transpired where clearly he hates women more than men.' Because he put the guy down like that too; you can tell, you can tell when he's describing the two of them, too.
Emily McDonald
He definitely goes into how much He hates Katie more than he hates Matt because he's like, 'Oh, he's kind of an idiot, whatever but he's like, 'Oh, but Katie... like and then when he's describing the differences between her and Emily as he's like, 'Oh, Emily is like, because she's she's always like, he's always talking to him and he's like, oh he's always acting the way I'm well intelligent so he has this kind of like actual respect for her in a way, yeah, where he's like, okay, she's actually intelligent, she actually has survival skills and I like how he's describing how Emily is trying to figure out if she's gonna like try and save Katie or not after her knee gets blown out, yeah He's like, 'Oh come on, you're smarter than this. Like I thought I respected you more than that.' And then when she ditches him, he's like, 'Okay, good girl. Like yeah, you did the right thing.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, I was like, God, you're crazy Jesus because I mean, you can try, you know? You can try but if someone's about, yeah, you know, legit murder, I would have done the same thing. You will, though. According to brain chemistry, your amygdala just is swarming with all these crazy pulses and adrenaline. I'm not sure if I'm not a brain scientist, I don't know if it's true but I don't know your brain's on fire, yeah arms are going off and you're like, 'I gotta move' and so you Take off and goes, but the the brutality of how he ended Katie was just like Jesus.
Emily McDonald
And you know I almost argued his attack on Emily was almost more brutal, so it was...
Ryan Oliver
but that was yeah, because I was already elevated to I was already kind of, oh yeah, middle that scene elevated me to peak woe-ness, and then it moved on, yes, that's the term, woe-ness. Like just the brutality, savagery of his of his true self, and then it gets to the attack on Emily which just described that attack for us.
Emily McDonald
This is this this is the same evening, the same evening, it was it was right after Katie, pretty much. He let Emily try to run and then he hunted her. Down and found her, yeah, he, oh that's when he he ended up putting the eye drops in her. He did something before that, I think, to like stop her... um, and then which one, oh, oh, okay, um, he got to where he was able to catch up to her, and then he put the eye drops in her where she couldn't see.
Ryan Oliver
So remember, they had a perimeter, so he had a perimeter fence, and that's right; she saw the fence. She's only six foot tall, and so you know I'm trying to climb it exactly; I mean, she's not... I don't think to describe how tall it is; I can't remember, but I can't imagine she's terribly short.
Emily McDonald
Elena's like five, like two; she's super short, so I don't know if she made. Ren that height, but it doesn't really go into it in the book.
Ryan Oliver
I don't think we could probably safely assume that she's Ren; is probably Elena, but different, you know what I mean? Yeah, at least physically stature-wise, would assume yeah, probably pretty similar so, but, but for a five-two athletic because in this in the book, she's pretty young, she's college age, you know fairly um, I'm not she's not petite but sound like she's she's not unhealthy. Yeah, to climb a chain-link fence; not not physically especially with adrenaline pumping through, you got someone killing people behind you, absolutely so, she jumps on that fence and it electrifies.
Emily McDonald
Her electrocutes her, and he walks up and does 'Yep
Ryan Oliver
', now she's frying and like 'Ow' and then he hits her with the eye drop, yeah, so she can't see anything.
Emily McDonald
And then he ends up like getting really, really close to her, he ends up holding her, and he's talking about because they're both med students, and so he's talking about how if you sever I think it's the C5 below the C5, five, stay alive, yes. So he's trying to tell her that wherever he's going to sever is going to leave her completely paralyzed, and all this kind of stuff, and he's going into this detail, and she's just like 'Can you not like
Ryan Oliver
', I'm asking her questions, he's like 'I know can you tell I was just mocking her. It was a C4 to breathe no more, C4 to breathe no more, because you do that completely paralyze your upper respiratory tract so you can't actually breathe. Like, yeah, I had i cringed at that one too.
Emily McDonald
I was gonna say that one was where I was like, 'Okay, yeah, that's up close and personal.' Holding her and stabs her in the back and then leaves her. Goes inside yeah paying for a bit and then she's like, 'Oh my God!' Takes a little cat nap' and then comes out and he's like, 'Great, I'm gonna finish her off because she's for sure still alive.' And then she's not there. Because this smart woman, she, which also this has to be traumatizing, lots of therapy for all of this, but this part two: dragging Katie absolutely her dead body up against the fence and then getting out of the fence, yeah, and escaping, yes, established in your spine so now your eye drops it, you can't see anything, yeah.
Ryan Oliver
Well, apparently Jeremy wasn't a very good med student because he apparently missed the certain uh, he missed, he sure did, he screwed up, okay. So, they have obviously had not gotten to anatomy class yet or like, yeah, they did, because he missed, he missed her spine um, and so, yeah, she was able to grab Katie, I don't know. How far she not? She was pretty vague on how far Katie died from the fence. I can't imagine was too far.
Emily McDonald
I imagined it, I imagined it being like a decent hoof, but not like a few hundred feet, like you know, yeah, yeah, not miles, something where when no, when you're like actively bleeding and you have a stab wound in your back and you have you know, it's going to be rough. Like she's not right next to her where she can just throw up against the fence, yeah, yeah, no, no, totally.
Ryan Oliver
So yeah, so what was funny was um when she was talking about this, I'm like 'Oh my god, that's brilliant, it's gruesome but brilliant because you had the literal offense there'. Fact that he leaves her to ah bleed out, I'll be there to finish you off so cocky, yeah, so cocky, so arrogant, yeah. She's got the, I don't know how big Katie was either, but I can imagine you're not if you're hauling around even someone who's five two at a hundred and hundred pounds, 110 pounds, and you're about the same, that's that's a lot of work, that's still a lot of work. So hauling her over while you're bleeding, so you're already losing a lot of blood, a lot of energy, dropping her in the electric fence so that the electric electricity hits her, and then after that, you climb on the fence, she still got zapped, it even mentioned in here, she's still getting zapped because the electricity is not it doesn't dissipate it is still present it's just less voltage going through you yep so she's getting hit with less voltage what what that is i have no idea uh it depends on his system you know yeah uh it will climb and ran miles to safety miles in the having no idea where she was no idea no freaking clue like absolutely insane holy crap so yeah so we we're following this emily girl and then when he wakes up the next morning he's like i done screwed up and i'll mess that one up i'll mess that one up good and then he goes while while we're while we're seeing this transpire we're learning about all these other victims that are coming out and every single one has similar physical features in abuse of katie and now emily yep and there's a huge climax uh with finding certain bodies and there's a huge climax with finding certain bodies like maps and everything and codes cemetery and yeah yeah at a at a body founded jazz festival yeah i mean it's huge it's a it's a big it's a big freaking story um and such a pretty pretty compact book um yeah but the twist is you say the twist because you got me on this book you say the twist oh god the twist is you find out that uh emily is actually ren as she describes it from Another life, yeah, and how did she figure out how do we, how do we get, how do we learn this?
Emily McDonald
We're it's a bracelet I'm pretty sure, that's the because we find her like card at one of the scenes and there's like little hints that he knows who Ren is, and so she's like wow that's crazy and she keeps like she you can kind of tell she's like 'I feel like I know this person but like no, I don't, there's some connection exactly. And then they find Emma who's buried alive in the cemetery, yeah, and she has Emily's bracelet with the E on it and a little anatomical heart.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, well I love because when when there's a scene where earlier in the book Jeremy Is sitting there at the, uh, at the lecture at the biology lecture, it's a three-hour lecture, okay, for starters, three-hour lecture, holy crap, I've been through those, Jesus Christ awful, um. But Emily is taking notes like a champ and she's got her charm bracelet on and it's just rattling away and he goes he's just intoxicated or infatuated with that and watching her, yep. And she's like, 'Oh my god', I'm like this, 'gosh', this is so terrible in a nutshell. And then Phil comes in and she's got the special princess bracelet and she's like, 'and so' shooting a pistol at Emily, so that's a very rational uh kind of meraki-ness, eh, obviously at first.
Emily McDonald
I was like, 'Wait a minute, can she just check out pen whether I mean that's fascinating? You're that's this is a great reason to even if it's really like, like a heaping case for one thing um because everyone does like this, but anyone does anything like I know they've seen it, I don't know, I haven't watched it yet, I just I was like okay so that was a really critical point. Sorry if you want to do that, I don't uh instead, you actually have some that's a pretty simple one, definitely unlike the Eff, some that's the FR!
Ryan Oliver
y, I know myself, know something, I watched it in a state of numbness and disbelief, Lanzer. I don't like, they don't really talk about trophies with him, no, I think honestly for him it was this is an evidence thing if I leave it behind yeah you know very smart um so got the bracelet he takes it, she's not worried about this because she's getting chased by a serial killer seven years later, yeah Emma is dug up hurriedly found alive barely barely, I mean just yep pulse is like one beat a minute or something ridiculous, yeah and on her wrist is the bracelet, it's not found until after she passes from hemlock poisoning which who's heard of that before, I had, I had but because I knew of the Socrates link oh god, Socrates was was tried for whatever was in the book and he was given that. He was, that's how he was executed essentially, yeah, died of hemlock, yeah, died of hemlock. I didn't know that was terrible, I didn't know it was that terrible, but death, yeah, I didn't know why he was hemlock becomes a part of the story, yeah, but that's how that's how we get to Part Two, like you talked about where we learned that she goes 'Holy crap! This guy is that is Cal.
Emily McDonald
My partner, of course, it's an alias, Cal my partner from seven years just a shortened version of his middle name because it's Jeremy Calvin, yeah, Calvin. I totally didn't even recognize that, I only did because I've been watching Halloween Town like absolutely crazy and So, there's Calabar, there is and then his son comes back as Cal and so that's why I made the wicked remark.
Ryan Oliver
I know we get back to it; so talking about part two at chapter 25, it was right after flying from Death Jim, you know, we were talking about Jim Miss Muller. Yes, okay, I'm like, 'It's either Muller or Muller. Muller sounds is it Muller?
SPEAKER_3
Is it m-u-l-l-e-r?
Ryan Oliver
I'm assuming it's Muller; I would I I call her Muller; I've called her Muller. I feel like there's supposed to be an E there, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong; if I'm wrong, I don't want to be right.
Emily McDonald
Whatever, I don't know who knows we.
Ryan Oliver
You know what? It's all right. If Elena Urquhart hears this ever and wants to come on and chat with us about it, and give us the act I'd cry, Emily would cry, I'd laugh at her crying in a nice, nice brotherly way, yes, obviously, I'd give you a virtual hug, so fantastic, yeah, but I, yeah, she comes on that'd be cool, I'd do this again just oh absolutely freaking amazing, well, I actually reached out try and reach out to her to get her to come on, yeah, I heard nothing, she's, she's a busy lady, she is, I'm not, I'm not mad about it, it's just like you i know she's very successful, she's very busy, it would just be cool so you know Elena if you're ever wanting to come on and chat with some fans especially super fan emily over here yes oh my god her and ash are my fave i need to listen to the podcast i've yet to listen to it so i should get on there morbid okay i have it right here i should just it's it is she is the co
Emily McDonald
-host and i love her so they're both just 10 out of 10 yeah fantastic fantastic okay well all right so back to it yes you said you had a quote you wanted to read yes so this is from jeremy and this is right after he's like reliving um his failure pretty much with emma because she was supposed to be dead when they dug her up and so he's stewing in his failures um so ren says uh you're up she has a pulse to the um medic that's there and uh part of His thought process on it is, she had loaded these words from her quiver and launched them from a tautly pulled bowstring with the force of a seasoned archer. They impale him even now like I don't; I would have never thought of someone saying something like 'I've obviously said like someone can say something that like hits you never in a million years would I be like they loaded that up in a quiver and just shot that arrow out of her mouth, and she's like, 'Oh my god, like, so it's funny.'
Ryan Oliver
It's funny you say that because I; I use something similar, but it wasn't so eloquently put. Uh, I was working on the pier um at the banger out here and I work with a guy, his name's Erwin. Super cool guy, but he's really quiet. He only talks to certain people because he doesn't like certain people at least back there, this is like four or five years ago, um who knows what he likes now. Um, but I see him from time to time. I'd call him the 'word sniper', I would call him the 'insult sniper' or the 'word sniper' because whenever we'd be in a group, he wouldn't say anything, he just observed, yeah, he'd gather enough information about one person, he'd build up time and he'd wait for his moment and when he said something it hit so hard that person shut their mouths and everyone erupted in laughter and it was just i called him the the insult sniper and he said something and i was like and he just laughed his ass off and i said you are the insult sniper and he just he's this quiet guy busting out laughing so after after i had that interaction with him he we became good buds oh yeah down there how can you not you are cool we need to talk that's incredible yeah we we need to be friends yes and yeah that's incredible he's one of my favorite people down there it's just i see him from time to time it's just so fun but yeah that that kind of metaphor it really does it's like damn uh yeah we're gonna hurt everybody words absolutely they can't
Emily McDonald
Yeah, I just read that and I was like 'Holy crap!
Ryan Oliver
I have never like read something like that like that just I read it and I was like, that is a beautifully put metaphor there just exactly I was like I was like I gotta write this down like oh my god I remember her saying I remember her writing it he saying it reading it whatever yeah you know what I mean but no that's awesome so yeah so after after um they find Emma in the coffin buried three feet deep not six feet but three feet deep yep yeah so that's when after she dies unfortunately and um yeah she that was the quote you read earlier um when we hit part two yeah about you know what it's like
Emily McDonald
To die, we don't know you know physically what happens, we don't know what you experience as that person; we can anguish how they're feeling but after Part Two and they discover the link between by they I mean we, the readers discover that link between Emily and Ren which is that they are one person, the same, the same person, yeah, which is super cool, oh God she did that um yeah he; it's Jeremy starts to spiral at that point, he it's like the one of the biggest tailspins I I mean most serial killers have this where they either have like for him it was a failure and it's he that just hit him so hard that he just absolutely loses control. He's like, I need a win, I need a win, I gotta do this, yes, and then he just makes the biggest mistake ever, yeah. He got sloppy, um, he got so sloppy, like he got, he was kind of sloppy with Emily because of he just didn't hit it right the spine, but I mean he is just so brazen, sloppy, cocky, impulsive, just insane. And I mean most serial killers, yeah, exactly, and most serial killers go through that where it's just they lose complete control, and well once that control is gone, yeah, they're just kind of trying to get the open Pandora's box kind of a thing, yeah, because his was motivated by failure, but there's some serial killers, and you know, way more.
Ryan Oliver
About this, than I do, uh, just because the podcast you listen to, and she has a huge smile on her face; everybody be very afraid. No, she's a terrible one, um, yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe, unless you get a coffee or something in the morning then she might, um, but I've what I've heard is people can tailspin because they've won so much absolutely they get arrogant overconfident and then they have a i'm gonna say a bloodlust, yeah they just want to start going crazy and doing all the damage they can, but then of course, yeah, rush you make mistakes, make mistakes, yep there's a few different kinds of i mean serial killers and tailspins and what have
Emily McDonald
You and, um, I mean Jeremy's is one that I feel like it's probably about 50/ 50 of the tailspins that happen because they're just cocky and they're arrogant and they're like, 'I can get away with anything because I'm a narcissist and I've gotten away with it so far.' And then there's yeah, and then there's the ones that mess up and make a mistake or something doesn't go according to plan and they're like, 'I have to get back on track impulsively and then they just I have to prove myself that I'm not a not a screw-up exactly right.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, I get that that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I mean people do that all the time even in the real world; they want to They either go into themselves or they will do dumb things or take risks, they're more willing to take risks and when you're thinking about you know taking risk uh you know financially socially that's okay, you're taking risk when it's kind of holy crap the law yeah it's not good yeah it's a little a little more we want them to screw up because we want them to get caught but and that's one thing that pops up in Morbid a lot when they're talking about cases is like I'm happy he was so stupid here but like how could you be so stupid like, like that kind of yeah, I wonder if laziness ever comes into the mix like you know not maybe. Not I don't know, laziness is the right term, okay. So have you ever been at a job so long or done something so long that you're just like I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, so damn tired? You don't want to do it anymore. I want to say it's almost like a severe complacency, yeah. I'm just done, I'm exhausted, I'm tired; any reason to just screw up. I wonder like because I've heard the theory of they want to get caught, they want the attention. I don't know if they necessarily want to get caught, but they want the attention. Want to get caught at least for psychopaths like Jeremy who would never want to actually get caught.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, I don't think he would fall under that, that wanted attention and that's how he got caught, yeah, and then there's also Ed Gein, just once he had Ed Gein, Ed Gein was the one, um, I'm pretty sure he's the one that made, like, skin stuff, he made like a lampshade out of skin, yeah, he was, he was real messed up, um, but I want to make sure that's the right one, I'm pretty sure it is, but he literally called the police, yep, and told them, you know, I murdered these people, um, and they didn't believe him, he was friends with the cops, and he was like, no, no really though, but once he liked the person he liked needed to kill was either his mom or his grandma and
Ryan Oliver
once he did that he was like well i'm done like that's that's the person i needed to kill and then was like well i'm gonna keep killing because i like doing it so i'm gonna just call the police and turn myself in like pretty much yeah that's a terrible hobby guys we're not quilting why not quilting come on quilting would have been a much better option yeah well i don't know better but definitely more less less less devastating more productive more productive i don't know synonyms words we'll figure yeah stuff stuff and things is is that was that correct that that term ed ed whatever ed gein ed gein let me ed gein g
Emily McDonald
-e-i-n ed
Ryan Oliver
I get to his tailspin, and it is I love that she she takes she takes legitimate things that have happened like um scenarios where a person is a and they even they even talk about in his narrative he talks about in his narrative he was, you know he didn't scout a location but so when he goes when he goes what was he he was leaving oh where was he going? He's went to a bar, yeah he went to a bar to scout out and then he sat at the bar, yeah sat at the bar saw a lady there, you know ordered her a drink, sent it to her, you know and I loved it. I love he's like he was just so disgusted with her. Yeah and it's just you can you can just be that like, lie that well but underneath you're like his skin is crawling he's just like he hates everything about her the breath her breath stinks of was it coffee and cigarettes yeah is just everything he's like he just looks at her and just thinks she is absolutely worthless and then i love it he convinces her to get in the car and drive because he offers like drugs or something because he could yeah cocaine cocaine he could deduce that she had blood you know bloodstain or whatever and in her nose and he's like oh she must snort cocaine yeah because you know that's what i think anytime i see you know someone i'm like maybe they're dehydrated
Emily McDonald
But, yeah, okay, me too.
Ryan Oliver
I'm absolutely kidding. Um, yeah, I know. Just hang out with Coke addicts all day long, um, yeah, Coca Cola addicts, but not not cocaine addicts, yeah, that's a different story, yeah, very different one of the same there, yeah, which one? No one will know, yeah, no Emily will know, I will, yeah, absolutely, yeah. But she gets him in the car and they start driving and he's awkward because he hates people, um, obviously I wouldn't say he's awkward, I think he put his shield down, yeah, so he's himself and she's awkward because she realizes that he's not who she thought she was getting in the car with to her or his or their defense. They only met each other for about 45 seconds, and then she's like, 'Oh my god, I'm gonna...' They only chatted for like a few minutes or so, or which I was sure I was talking to my friend about this; we were talking about like women's safety and stuff, which we touched on earlier.
Emily McDonald
Um, about just how there's this guy that shared a video on Facebook, and he was like, 'I shared my exact location on the internet to see if strangers would come camping with me.' And this woman, like, responded to it, and she's just laughing, and she goes, 'Could you imagine a woman doing this?' Because, you can't; she was like, the the just audacity of this...
Ryan Oliver
I have a story, okay. sorry I was letting you finish though I want you to, if you, oh yeah, I saw the excited look so, okay, okay, so, so, so, it's ridiculous all right, so it didn't happen to me, I was, I heard second-hand, so I'll do my best with the details, okay, okay, so um, my father-in-law goes camping, I want to say it was Cushman Lake in Washington, whatever a campground, okay, yes, and he's gone with four other guys, it's a guy trip, cool, cool beans, um, you know they're older, they're in their 40s to 60s, all right, that's the age range out there enjoying themselves eating but on a fire, it's dark, it's pitch black, there are no lights other than yours. Campfire and whatever extra lights you have, all of a sudden a lady just happens to enter the campsite, just enter the campsite and is looking for attention, asking what people's names are, what they're doing, how their camp is going, uh-huh, and was getting real flirty, real flirty, and all of them are like, 'What the hell is this lady doing? Like, what made you think you could just come up to a group of guys like where you know they're not going to do anything; they're good guys, but obviously, yeah, but if you don't know these people, you don't know motives, you don't know what they're going to do maybe they've been drinking, you have No idea but they walked up and just started with them and was being really obnoxious and weird, you could tell that she wanted attention, something what that attention was, we could probably assume yeah yeah so it was, but that was something that I was just i'm like 'why why why would you ever she was obviously not in her right mind or she clearly super naive, I've met very naive people, I have two completely stupid people, like I mean I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know when it comes to social or just yeah street smarts, yes like 'oh you, you need you need to have a bodyguard, you need something'
Emily McDonald
You need to have a buddy with you to to play bodyguard for you, it's just this is scary but yeah I mean I've had I had you know multiple times where my mental health was real bad and when your mental health is real bad you have no concern for your own safety so some of the things that I did during that time I like look back and I'm like how am I alive right now, it's like jumping or something or definitely base jumping no like having a first Tinder date at my apartment for like oh shit yeah I was literally texting my friend I was like there is literally no reason that one of those didn't end poorly like and luck me now literally like If I was single and went to a bar, there is no way, no way, I would go home with a man that likes me right absolutely not me in 2020 maybe because mental health wasn't great then but now absolutely not so I mean I'm thinking and I'm like first off he can tell you're into drugs that's a sign he's over-observant that's a red flag, right? Um, you're at least two cosmos in, girl, and that she was she was got yes those have got alcohol and you know like inhibitions are down, inhibitions I'm like girl, you can easily be taken advantage of in like 60 million different ways well, and like have you seen those desperate?
Ryan Oliver
Have you seen those things with like
Emily McDonald
The uh, how quick a person could just drop a roofie and a drink, oh they can just like those videos, yeah people can talk with their hands and throw one in there, yeah I'm like holy crap, I couldn't, I can't imagine, I mean if you think some of those pickpocketers are good, am I just dropping something easy exactly and that's I'm just shocked at how easy that looks whenever I would go out to bars, I never go out on my own to bars just for many reasons but um travel exactly if I were to drink is by me if I leave it unattended for any amount of time it's gone um but even then I would be suspicious unless my eyes were on it the whole time and if I go out. With girls, they hold the drink while I'm gone; it doesn't get on the itinerary like it is held. It's just wild, yeah.
Ryan Oliver
Oh God, I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it, even if I don't know... Like I keep thinking about it. We were talking with actually at work the other day about just dating in general, just how insane and terrifying, yeah. Because in our group there's three of us; I'm married for quite a while, um yes. My lead, she's been married for about the same amount of time, maybe give or take a couple years, and then our um my other co-worker, he's um had girlfriends, you know? But he's effectively single and he goes like, 'Yeah, it's awful It's awful, he just, yeah, dangerous. It's weird, uh, you meet some weird people, uh, he's oh God, yeah, too crazy, but he's like, it's just, it's just weird, but anyway, I think we're getting off topic a little bit, but yeah, i mean, yeah, i mean something bad happens to her; she does not end up in a good position, no, she does not, yeah. So, what happens to her?
Emily McDonald
Emily, go ahead and explain what happens to her, so Jeremy being just the you know psychopath that he is, sunshine, yeah, exactly, um, be definitely non-violent person, yeah, he tells her that he's, yeah, he tells her that he's gonna take her back to, uh, his house; she notices they're driving in the forest. And she's like, so uh, you live out here and he's like, no, no, but exactly we're just gonna go up in a treehouse and he's like, no, but I just, I know a good place over here or something, and she's like cool, and he's like, I can tell she's getting nervous or something, exactly.
Ryan Oliver
I think that's what you want to do is take a walk, I think, something like that, which I mean, walks are great when you know they're, know the person for someone to get exactly um, and so lighting was it sunset, oh it was it was it was it was dark, it was like one, it was like I was gonna say it was close to um, they had a receipt they they had a receipt which told us that she had some fries. And two cosmos, he ordered her a cosmos; there were three, so yeah, yeah, middle of the night, yeah. It was like he rolled up, like close to um, last call, last call; it's about two, two in the morning, yeah.
Emily McDonald
So I mean, we're going up clearly from how he's describing her body language, but he's like, 'Oh, no one will be here, no one goes hunting here and that's when they're talking about like the pigs and the alligators and stuff; and when Elena had to do that research and all that. And so he ends up trying to do what he does with the people that he takes back to his house and he wants to hunt her in the middle of the night with his um, night vision goggles. On but then uh, two hunters are there and they hear him, so he ends up grabbing her, wrestling her, and cutting her throat pretty much ear to ear. He's like 'I for sure got her carotid artery, I for sure got it.' So he sprints away; the hunter's finder he did not get her carotid artery, he nicked it.
Ryan Oliver
He nicked it, so I what the what the surgeon said uh I wrote it down. The surgeon said that he nicked it and if the hunters were not there, she for sure would have bled out because I mean, you hit ain't that thing that's just gonna pump out by yeah, you know that's just gonna be found trivia like crazy oh god, that's gross. Sorry, that's an image that is an image. I think that's what I do, um good or bad imagery, yeah but uh or terrifying or both and uh but yeah, she if those guys weren't there, she would have been screwed and he would have been would have gotten his release as he exactly like Jesus.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, if the hunters weren't there, he would have been fine, but the fact even if he did kill her, it was not how he wanted it. He was already frustrated from the fact that he didn't get his like play time or whatever you know, he didn't get the hunt that he wants, and then on top of that, he sees that she didn't die and he's like great, another fuck up, fantastic exactly so yeah, so then then he goes home, he catches a couple
Ryan Oliver
hours sleep and it's fitful fitful sleep not good and he wakes up and he sees the news yeah and he knows he's caught spiraling a little more but it's yeah so spiring a little more and now he's got to make he has to make adjustments or no contingency plans yes he needs to make a contingency plan now we know from the past from the breed in the book that we he has a history with rent yes it all started with her her escaping caused this momentum to this problem yeah it according to him he blames her for everything wrong right now which is so she didn't make him kill anybody but whatever that's so narcissistic of him i think i wrote that
Emily McDonald
In there, yeah, I put in my mind, I cannot comprehend how he thinks this is all Rent's fault as if she's the one that made him murder a ton of people and she's the one making him leave his home. No, my man, that was the consequences of your actions.
Ryan Oliver
Right?
Emily McDonald
Well, he's clearly an evolved human, you know what I mean, yeah, yeah, unhinged right now, yeah.
Ryan Oliver
So, well, and then so this part really kind of creeped me out actually, um.
Emily McDonald
The part where he he knows where Rent lives, oh my god, I wrote oh my god, yes, because that is one of my biggest fears: waking up in the middle of the night, yeah, I literally wrote this is my worst freaking nightmare. someone's been watching me for god knows how long i think i'm safe because of all my locks i double check them before i go to bed it takes just one weak spot to get inside your house do you remember that show i think takes a thief or something yes i really like that show yeah which our house is locked down like fort knox like any entry point covered locked double locked like our i i couldn't break into my house which is why we now have a door all that kind of stuff yeah it's just lasers and so lasers cameras and guard dogs yes my guard dog is very terrifying she um is he is yes he is terrifying i also put having someone in my house while I sleep just gives me the chills, I hate it! Plus, some guy that tried to kill me seven years before broke and stole my grandmother's ring. I feel not only incredibly violated but pissed off because that is my family heirloom, sir, not yours, right?
Ryan Oliver
Right!
Emily McDonald
Like, I have Grandma's ring on my dresser, I know you do. I'm like you come in, you take my Grandma's ring, hell no!
Ryan Oliver
So that must have run true because not only not only is the main character her, hers, original name is Emily, is mine, yeah! Next, you have a psycho person who comes in through and steals grandma's heirloom, grandma's ring, which you have one on your dresser. You probably had some nightmares when you were reading this, didn't you?
Emily McDonald
I actually didn't shockingly; I think it's because of how much murder I watch on a daily basis, anyways, and like stuff like that. But I mean I've had nightmares similar to this in the past, not stealing grandma's ring but I mean I just I was so pissed yeah the the the like the idea of like someone in your walls kind of a thing you know, I'm talking about or the attic, yes Criminal Minds they had a couple like that. Oh my god, actually there was a real story of a guy living in the attic, yeah, there's one of a guy that didn't know the couple and there's one that was the wife's.
Ryan Oliver
um like boyfriend that lives in the attic and moved with them and the husband didn't know yeah holy what i'll have to find it and send it to you yeah insane there was a um a walking dead episode it was like the last season of the main show and i'm not going to get into whether great or whatever but i yeah i had watched it for so long like you know what let's just finish watching it yeah it's new the last last season was really energetic had a lot of action in it a lot of stuff they this one took took the cake man it was they they walked into this house and they were hiding just hanging out in the house they were hearing sounds and it was These like feral people who were in the walls, and like there were various access points and it was an old house, so you could like see like the old like like holes in the wall like natural wood rot kind of a thing. You could see eyes in the walls and what was so creepy, they didn't talk; they like howled, like groaned and howled like wolves or apes. And they didn't run like people on two legs; they ran like apes.
Emily McDonald
They were so glad I didn't watch that season.
Ryan Oliver
Pretty much bare-ass naked, they had underwear on or like shorts on but they were like, of course, they were muscular as hell, so they're stupid strong, obviously and they
Emily McDonald
Just, Christ, they attack.
Ryan Oliver
I'm like, 'Oh my god, I could, I couldn't do it.' I'm like, 'I watched the rest of it'
Emily McDonald
and I need to watch something nice, yeah, that's when Friends gets put on, The Office, SpongeBob, freaking anything that's happy and exactly hello Tubies, something happy. Thank you.
Ryan Oliver
I think more fighting than that, but anyway, it sure is terrifying, yeah, but yeah, so that was sorry, random, random uh little offshoot there, or so terrifying. So, yeah, so Jeremy goes, Jeremy breaks in in uh to like a what, storm window or basement window, yeah, it's in their basement because all the windows are painted shut and he was like, 'Oh I'm sure
Emily McDonald
That her husband was supposed to check the safety in this, and yeah I'm sure that they've talked about repairing it; it just hasn't gotten done. But like, I can get in through that point and I was like, 'God, I hate you.' Like, that is terrifying.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, like go do something else, go take a call thing or something.
Emily McDonald
Jesus literally anything but what you're actually doing right now.
Ryan Oliver
Do anything else, leave this poor girl; she's living her best life. She's going out, she's having a good time with friends, and she's like, 'I'm gonna go to...'. She's got friends, she's got a wonderful husband, good career. I think you're the hell alone. I also i loved the chapter of her going out with her friends, I thought that was such a nice little like break from everything and what a what a Louisiana thing to do, gonna get like literally like it's just a I don't know if that even comes off right but like when you think of Louisiana, deep south, you think of voodoo, you know, voodoo or psychic or mediums or just that kind of spirituality to it, reading the tea leaves, yep, yeah, the tea leaves, the palm, the reading and the tarot cards, and I was like, 'Yep, always want to do a tarot card, just because what the hell, why not?
Emily McDonald
I know I want to do it once, just to see...
Ryan Oliver
I did a tarot read. Did a you leave one, it wasn't like on purpose, we didn't go to it was, we were in Pennsylvania, it was okay, 2010, 2009, so it's been a minute, I would say it's been a long time. And Ashley's uh aunt's friend came over who is a supposed medium, right, yeah, clairvoyant, whatever you want to do, it. She actually did the tea leaves for everybody in the room and it was interesting, it was interesting, made us think a little bit, let us think a little bit, yeah, ruminate, ruminate for a minute, I know, I like that, I like that, okay, anyway moving on, moving on, anyways, yeah, let me who let's see um what was that, oh we haven't talked about Jeremy's uh temper.
Emily McDonald
Tantrum, he throws in the house, yeah, that's next because he, he continues to spiral, he continues to spiral because don't they, they got a name, yeah, they got a name from the hemlock because he killed his mom that way, yes, and that's where the Socrates thing came in, yep, very, she mentions it's a very literary poisoning, yes, and because it causes like your muscles to lock up and all of this kind of stuff and it's not a yeah, so it was able to link it was from like two to three years before she was like you know I remember this happening before and then the son's name is Jeremy Calvin Rose, is his full name, yes, yep, Jeremy Calvin Rose, and hence
Ryan Oliver
cal the that you wonderfully connected because i definitely did not i didn't even think about it i was like damn i can't usually do that so hey you know what all the credit in that one even all the credit in that one um love it so we were talking earlier about like why you think it's so important to have a temper tantrum because it's a very literary thing to have a temper tantrum because it's a very literary thing to have a temper tantrum because i think well we think his his aggression towards women is so much stronger than men yeah it's all we can perceive we at least can see for the evidence we have it seems like his anger towards Women is way higher than men because he's like, 'yes, like how he murdered the one guy' and mostly he he hunts down women. Yeah, they didn't talk about his relationship with his mom too much except that she she hooked up with the librarian, yeah, and he describes her in a very like um I'm trying to think of the right word, I'm trying to think of the right word, I'm trying to word for it uh pathetic way kind of, yeah.
Emily McDonald
He's like, 'wow, she tried to love me like what is that like? It's a very like she was too emotional or something.
Ryan Oliver
It's in like the first or second chapter, yeah, it's it's very early on, that's when he's talking about like, yeah, left alone. A lot and yes, his dad was more like, he was the the kind of typical guy, you know. He, he didn't go hunting, well, he did go hunting; they went hunting, yes, and um, but he would be gone for a while, and his mom and him would go to the library because she'd hook up with the librarian, the head librarian there, yeah! It seemed like he looked up to his dad, yeah, even while not being there, yeah, because that one scene with um, when they're putting down the deer, yeah, he was very into interested in that, he, yeah, I was like, oh, there it is, there's the start of that, yeah, the nugget we sure did find the beginning, the origin of his, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, not so great.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, he uh, he ends up throwing a little a little fit in his house as he realizes he's solo at this point, duly and truly screwed, absolutely because they're like great; she can tell them exactly who I am.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, and and he starts to plan his escape from the house. He mentions, 'like he's a friend,' yeah, yeah, uh. He goes downstairs to the basement; he touches the walls-we'll probably never be able to see these walls again or touch these walls again-and he changes the light bulb.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, I was i'm like, 'why you're leaving? Like why, why are we doing this?
Ryan Oliver
Just leave it, I don't know.' He's just he's got to fix it something honest to do list; he's got to take
Emily McDonald
care of it before you leave i don't know i don't freaking know that's why it's it's like he that's the only thing he has a tie like a relationship with is this house that's the only thing he has a tie with is this only thing he really like cares about is this house because he's grown up there yeah he grew up there he owns it now uh we can assume that he took care of his mom when she was or took care of she got older by took care of yeah you know so she was the only one that had hemlock poisoning exactly yeah that was for sure him putting it in her tea or something but yeah and then the the would i guess this be considered the climax i don't
Ryan Oliver
Know, um, there's a couple, yeah, I would say the climax, yeah, this is in the part one, part, yeah, is that that's when the twist is revealed, the secrets are revealed, yeah, because I mean they have a few like very intense scenes go on, of you know, like him hunting the three of them, that's kind of you know super intense and then finding out that Ren is Emily is super intense and then them their whole thing with Jeremy, like this is the lead up to that other like last big face-off, I guess, yeah, and um, I wanted to say when when Ren realized that she was dealing with the same guy that almost killed her seven years prior, I was so happy that Elena decided To make her come out and tell Laroe, yes I'm like, don't hold this, no that would be so stupid, it would be yeah, that's why I was saying earlier, like, it just it made sense, everything she did, yes I feel like a normal human being even with her dealing with the crap she went through, yeah, would do the exact same thing and it's like, yes, talk with your talk with the detective and and his partner and get them in the know because, yeah, you don't need to keep it a secret to protect anybody, you know how to use that's always the excuse, you're not doing anything to protect anybody with that, like no, yeah, yeah, exactly, but, yeah, so we get to the end and this is the weirdness I mean it's all weird, it's all weird, yeah he's weird, strange Jeremy, he's a weird dude, yeah, it's actually quite creepy, uh, yeah, yeah, I mean all of it.
Emily McDonald
I have a quote from 34 which is I think it's Ren walking into the um I think it might be the backyard or walking up to the front of the house, the smell, the cypress trees, no not the smell but I've heard Elena describe that smell before so it's weird like when she was describing it as like starting with the onion and then getting worse and hitting you, I was like yeah I could almost smell onions when I was thinking about that, I'm like oh absolutely I was like what. The heck you know how your brain is, oh absolutely factory impressive, oh yeah, where um no, it actually smells like death there's a corpse around here somewhere, I don't know where it is. In this one, but yeah, no, I think this one was when she's walking into the backyard, uh, it's cypress trees hug one another from every angle and the sun can't the blanket they form over this area, this is where he took his victims, this is where they cut their skin on their legs and feet while trying to run away from him. The feeling in this place is dark and ominous, saturated with the evil that has touched it for so long, yeah, the imagery wild, absolutely.
Ryan Oliver
Wild, it's very well done, she definitely knew what she was doing when she wrote this, yeah that's why I'm like, you can tell all of the knowledge she has in this book so much and I mean I'm assuming a lot of her storytelling helped from doing the podcast too, I mean you know, yeah her storytelling is amazing, that's great, that's the beauty, so I mean really, she was setting herself up for success here when you think about, yeah, I know she's been writing this for a while, I can imagine, I mean a lot of people I talk to usually have a book in the vault and I'll have it for decades, I mean I had talked to a guy the other day who had his book in the vault for 30 something years finally just got it out 15 i was 15 yeah yeah yeah it was a while a long time and i mean technically it's not even the full thing's not even out yet that's how crazy it is it's just yeah it's long but yeah no i mean i love i love when i hear that though they're they get it out there and just it's funny how you do things through your life that help you get to where you want to be and for her it was you know she she got all these degrees which is impressive and then she got she worked as an me and then she's on the podcast telling stories and all of a sudden she's writing a book it's like of it like good yeah she did
Emily McDonald
the damn thing that is for sure like i said i'd love to meet her i'd be just cool to talk oh god absolutely chat and chat you do fangirling all over the place you just be you'd be drooling wouldn't you i would be shaking is what i would be doing i would just be shaking would you pee on the floor chihuahuas or something like that i hope not i don't i mean i do say that i i share the same anxiety as my dog and he's part chihuahua but hopefully we'll have the same not that extensiveness okay now that extent i should say no that's funny as hell yeah all right so let's let's uh god how does this wonderful triumphant instant national bestseller When it came out, and in a wild, wild way because they find he has a body in the freezer which I don't think we ever really find out who was in the freezer.
Ryan Oliver
No, it was just another blonde girl.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, it was just some chick that he had successfully done the sever of the thing. He did the lobotomy and I thought he did the same to her. Oh, you're right. You're right. He was experimenting.
Ryan Oliver
You're right because he did. He figured out how to properly c5 stay alive. Thing I think he did a lobotomy too on her.
Emily McDonald
He sure did. He sure did. Just, he's really interested in those Elena did an episode on lobotomies and that was a thing.
Ryan Oliver
I need I need to listen to her. I'm going.
Emily McDonald
To find her right after this and I'm going to find her stuff nationally in our 10 out of 10 um, but so cannot fangirl enough um, so they're not at all so they find the body in the freezer because Elena can tell that it smells like death. She's like, 'No, there's a body in there for sure, like 100.' And then Bloodhound exactly and then they end up finding him, Jeremy, outside, yeah. But which this part kind of irks me because so they have this interaction, him and Ren, a little bit, and she wants to shoot him but can't, which makes sense.
Ryan Oliver
She's not a killer, she's not a terrible person, she's not a cop.
Emily McDonald
It's you know I'm like, 'I get it,' I probably wouldn't be able To pull the trigger either maybe like a leg or something, but I definitely couldn't do a kill shot. Um, my problem is that when will shoots him, he shoots him in the chest and not the freaking head.
Ryan Oliver
Why did you not do a headshot so there isn't actually a reason for that? Okay, so it's actually police so the police are actually trained to go for the biggest object which is your chest, that's what they're trained to shoot.
Emily McDonald
But we know this guy is very smart, yes and I'm like go for the brain knock him out, yes.
Ryan Oliver
We're not dealing with zombies here, we're dealing with people.
Emily McDonald
Yeah, he's almost worse, people again, you watch Walking Dead, they're worse.
Ryan Oliver
But I mean, no, I totally get what you're saying um oh god, according to police like I guess I've talked to several uh people who've worked for been trained with the police and they said I get it, shoot for the chest, I get it.
Emily McDonald
But the possibility that he's wearing a bulletproof vest, yes, you're right, you're absolutely right, that's the only the only thing that left me like at the end of this, but I had I think it's because I know I just hated him so much by the end of the book which is because Elena wrote it so well that I was like just killing what she can't, because then she can't do another he is he's not a good human being I I thought this was.
Ryan Oliver
gonna be a one and done, I seriously thought it was, and I was like, 'Cool, I'm looking forward to one and done.' And maybe that was actually a little a little irking, not because I'm disappointed it wasn't; I was expecting it to be a one and done. Yeah, so when I read it, I'm like, 'Really? Wait, I have to now wait?' And that's the problem. And I did the waiting, I did it to my readers too; it's like, 'Wait now, thrill okay.' But that's okay, but she they wrapped it up in such a way, and now I'm just curious as to because he gets away.
SPEAKER_2
Yeah, he has a body double, he has a dead body double.
Ryan Oliver
Yeah, who is this guy? I don't know who this guy is; I just i know I'm like the second book. Would have to be them addressing the victims, you would think, yeah. And I want to know how much of a time is going to pass; I know there's so many questions like, I just... I mean, does she get a ring back?
Emily McDonald
She got a ring back; she got a ring back; she got a ring back because he left it on the coffee table, yeah, because he was torturing her with it a little bit, yes, a lot of it, and it worked.
Ryan Oliver
She kind of she said like, I love how she described when she found it-it's like basically, like, kind of white noise, and and she kind of just kind of started spinning kind of out of body, out of experience. I'm, I'm barely paraphrasing, yeah. Find it, but yeah, I probably could
Emily McDonald
I mean, I've had no, I'm not either. I've had like similar situations and I brought it up in my notes earlier too when she's going through the autopsy with Emma how she was like, I thought it was over this you know, like I thought I could do this if I could handle this and I obviously have not been kidnapped, I have not been almost murdered like thankfully. But it's it's interesting when you think, let's keep that yeah, I would like that to stay please um don't don't need to experience it not putting it out in the universe no no thank you very much um but I like I do understand the feeling of thinking you've moved past a trauma, like you're
Ryan Oliver
Done, it's good, done and dusted, everything's fine, and then one thing, I mean this is a very large thing that pops up but like something pops up and automatically you're back there and having that happen while she's literally performing an autopsy, couldn't even imagine like PTSD, man PTSD, oh God, it's wild, I mean I've heard of veterans and I've heard of people who have experienced trauma not war but PTSD, yeah, who they smell something like a candle somebody used or a perfume or they smell like just even cooking something, cooking they get this smell of and that just takes them back, olfactory is the most like prolific, most uh. powerful sense to bring you back to something that could be a good memory or a crappy one and it's yeah you know or the sight of it and just that hitch the memory it's like holy crap but yeah no it yeah i think it was a great book so so when you get to the rating i think uh we need to figure out a rating for top shelf but i'm thinking we got to look at different you know books or not books but alcohols like top shelf because you got top shelf you got well they got cheapo five dollar crap yeah this is definitely not a well book no it's not a well book it's a well
Emily McDonald
-written book it is a very well-written book i mean this is a top shelf book for me I mean, I agree.
Ryan Oliver
I really you know what I'm really glad I read it a second time because I am too. I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm faster because I got to actually absorb everything and I was like very happy I re-read it because it hit hard at this time, it really did.
Emily McDonald
I find there's a couple books that I've read right now that I really like re-reading them because I'm able to kind of think more on them because I'm not really someone who ruminates and likes really thinks about books when I read them the first time, I'm just reading to enjoy it, and so being able to read it and like think about it and I mean, this just plays in my head like a movie. Like I want this to come out as a movie, so I'm going to read it and I'm going to think about it and I'm going to think about it so bad because I think they would do such good work with it. Just oh, it's such a good book!
Ryan Oliver
Um, it's just i mean it's one of my favorite books like I will happily read it again, yeah, anytime I'm not usually one who re-reads books very often, I have a few that I will especially for like um sequels coming out, you know, that kind of oh yeah, so like yeah, um and I mean, just from talking, I think I'll probably be able to remember this for quite a while so whenever she gets a second one, I'm Just gonna dive, I'm just gonna absolutely do it. So, I don't usually read, so this was a good opportunity for to reread something that I don't normally read.
Emily McDonald
So, but when we do a lot of like uh oh god what's it called? I've read a lot of like self-help books, oh okay. Because I don't, I don't absorb the information the first time that well.
Ryan Oliver
But well, yeah, that's because a lot of those you know they have a lot of little stories anthologies to drive a point home versus this is a one narrative, one yeah. And I do love, I actually love that it is not a narrative style, it is in third person narrative style, it is in third person.
Emily McDonald
I, I just, I like narrative.
Ryan Oliver
Done right, but I thought it was just what I don't need the inner dialogue all the time, I just know what's going on maybe what's going through her/ his mind. It was well done, I really enjoyed so I, I give it a top shelf rating absolutely same yeah so we'll we'll come up with other ratings so we can a one two and a three or something and we'll go from there mid shelf top shelf and well yeah I think that'll work well we'll figure it out I'll figure it out yeah I'm not an alcohol connoisseur or uh I'll ask Chris see if he has any ideas there you go yeah all right cool well um do you have any other closing remarks or anything before we sign off
Emily McDonald
I don't think so, I think we said all we needed to need to get out there and and more. I think I probably that's fine a lot, so that's alright.
Ryan Oliver
Well, cool guys, I hope you guys enjoyed the heck out of this. We're going to come out with a bunch more books, uh, and rating if you, if you want to, if you want us to read one in particular and review the Dickens, uh, let us know, so the Dickens, the Dickens, I don't know, I'm like 65 but I'm not really the Charles Dickens out of it. Oh, I like that, I mean, uh, oh, I love you, you're wonderful.
Emily McDonald
I just watched Muppets Christmas Carol the other day.
Ryan Oliver
Oh, there you go! Oh, it's November now. Okay, I'll let it slide alright. christmas crazy whatever yeah it'd be hi good stuff all right well cool we're gonna have fun doing this i think this is gonna be exciting it's gonna be a lot of fun for sure hell yeah it is all right well yeah okay guys enjoy go read some good books and i know we've ruined it for you or we have it go read it anyway screw you guys go read no i'm just kidding don't screw you guys screw you go support elena urquhart and her wonderfulness so absolutely all right all right and we'll talk to you later sounds good all right love you love you too good stuff all right well cool we're gonna have fun doing this i think this is gonna be exciting
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